“Nothing has touched me more emotionally than this visit.” Only one of the elephants in the “Arena” is acting like a china shop

You were in Kiev for a day last week. What was the most impressive moment for you?
Ignacio Cassis: My visits to two cities north of Kiev made me realize the magnitude of the destruction and suffering of the people, which was really felt. That was very impressive.

What did you see there?
I spoke to a group of women in a neighborhood in Borodyanka that was almost completely destroyed by artillery fire. They freeze at home because they no longer have windows. And the local authorities cannot help because they lack the resources and the necessary equipment. In another place, I met a mother with three small children who live in a wooden house completed by a company in eastern Switzerland. This family considers itself lucky compared to many others: at least they have a house that protects them from the cold.

Have you ever encountered a situation similar to the one in Kiev?
No, I’ve never seen so much destruction, so much suffering in one place. I was in Iraq or Lebanon. That was also very depressing. But nothing touched me more emotionally than this visit to Ukraine.

How can Switzerland help the war victims quickly?
The needs to get through the winter are enormous. There is a lack of many things: money, craftsmen and materials needed to repair the electrical grid that the Russians deliberately destroyed. Thanks to the know-how of our companies, Switzerland can offer concrete assistance in the field of infrastructure. Another delivery of Swiss relief supplies containing fire-fighting and debris-clearing equipment is currently underway.

Can you indicate who is involved in this?
No, it’s too early for that. We work hard to help and shelter the energy sector. We have more than doubled our support to Ukraine this year. The approximately 130 million francs from the Swiss Solidarity are also useful.

When other heads of state had traveled for a long time to Kiev over the summer, you stayed in Switzerland. There was no reason to travel, you said then. With Kiev under fire again and the situation much more uncertain, you traveled. Why now?
The visit was necessary. It was about clarification: where do we stand? What are the needs? How can Switzerland help? In July we had a large delegation from Ukraine at the reconstruction conference in Lugano. We did a lot together then. Now there was clearly a need for personal contact to discuss the way forward. And it was important to do this before the Reconstruction Conference in Berlin. With the visit I also wanted to show solidarity at a time when Kiev is again being attacked with missiles. President Zelensky and Prime Minister Shmyhal very much appreciated my acceptance of their invitation in July.

Did the two make demands on Switzerland?
Demand is the wrong word. I specifically asked how we can best support them. And there is a lot: financing the reconstruction is a big problem, but also fast help with a view to the coming winter. The task now is to act quickly, effectively and in a coordinated manner.

Isn’t the federal government just trying to prevent more people from Ukraine from fleeing to Western Europe and also to Switzerland?
On-site assistance is the key. Of course we will continue to receive the refugees in Switzerland. But the message from the Kiev government is clear: “We want our people to return, we need them for the reconstruction.” So there is a mutual interest that the local population gets the chance to survive the winter.

On Tuesday, you traveled to Berlin for the G7-EU reconstruction conference. They stood between Chancellor Olaf Scholz and European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen. What does this invitation mean to you?
It means that in Lugano we have taken the first step on a long road of reconstruction that cannot wait until the war is over. Reconstruction is the greatest hope we can give the Ukrainians, it gives perspective. We must act now: the platform must be defined by the end of the year to coordinate and put into practice the immediate aid for this winter, but also the financing of reconstruction. It is an enormous task: for the Ukrainian authorities to function at all, billions of euros are needed every month.

How much does Switzerland pay?
This question is premature. The task now is to define responsibilities so that the international community can organize itself.

Isn’t it the case that with the G7 conference in Berlin the great powers are taking over and Switzerland drops to second place?
Switzerland, together with Ukraine, gave the green light in Lugano. The principles of Lugano provided the framework for the reconstruction process in Berlin. If the conference in Berlin has shown anything, it is that a single country, no matter how big it is as Germany, will not be able to steer this process on its own.

With its appearance, Switzerland joins the circle of Western powers that also support Ukraine militarily. How does that reconcile with Swiss neutrality?
Fine, as long as it is clearly stated that Switzerland cannot provide arms or provide troops. Our neutrality does not mean indifference. There are plenty of other tasks that we can take on, for example in emergency aid, diplomacy, but also in democratic development and reforms in Ukraine, in which Switzerland has been heavily involved for years.

Nevertheless, Vladimir Putin and US President Biden both said Switzerland is no longer neutral. President Zelensky has also questioned neutrality. Only the Federal Council says otherwise. Wouldn’t it be fairer to say that Switzerland cannot remain neutral towards such a blatant violation of international law and human rights as Russia’s?
No, we are and will remain neutral. We do not participate in the war with troops or weapons. But we stand for freedom, democracy and our values. And that is absolutely compatible with our neutrality.

In the summer you mentioned the concept of cooperative neutrality. However, the Federal Council now adheres to the interpretation of neutrality that has been in effect since 1993. What new things would cooperative neutrality have brought?
With cooperative neutrality, Switzerland would have continued to fully comply with the neutrality law, but would have interpreted it even more in favor of foreign and security policy cooperation with partner states. This would also have entailed legal adjustments. For example, partner states could have waived non-re-export declarations for the export of war material.

You met the President of the European Commission, von der Leyen, at the conference. Have relations between Switzerland and the EU also been discussed?
Yes, I met her and we chatted about the status of the exploratory talks and the technical talks.

What emerged?
That a negotiating mandate comes into question when there is a real chance to find solutions to the bottlenecks that prompted the Federal Council to terminate the negotiations on the framework agreement. We are now intensively working on this in the polls and in the technical discussions. At the moment there are still differences, especially when it comes to questions about the free movement of persons.

You adopted the EU file when you were elected to the Bundesrat, but you have not made any progress on it since. Except for reorganizations in the organizational chart of the federal government, nothing is happening. When will it finally take place?
In May 2021, the Federal Council decided not to sign the framework agreement because there were too large differences on key issues such as wage protection and free movement of persons. We are now in the process of taking a smaller step towards our most important business partner, with whom we also form a community of values.

After the election of a replacement for Ueli Maurer in December, will you leave the foreign department if there is an opportunity to change departments?
The fact that I am so involved in the EU dossier shows that I have the ambition to find a solution. The issue of departmental division will be addressed after Ueli Maurer’s by-election to the Federal Council.

At home, impatience is growing: recently several delegations from Parliament, the parties and the cantons went to Brussels, where they met your negotiating partner, EU Commissioner Sefcovic. What do you think of this parallel diplomacy?
I note that these efforts have so far yielded no results. Delegations also see that there are still disagreements with Brussels. The situation is unsatisfactory. We would all like to make a breakthrough.

We are entering an uncertain winter due to the energy crisis and we are isolated in Europe due to the lack of an energy agreement. Will the energy crisis force Switzerland to compromise with the EU?
I do not think so. If an agreement is reached with the EU, it will not be because of the energy crisis. But of course the war in Ukraine plays a role. In the medium term, we face a huge security policy problem in Europe: the proven security architecture based on the 1975 Helsinki Final Act establishing the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the OSCE, is being called into question. We have to find our position. It is about the security of the country, about the freedom and rights of our people.

Do you know what this position of Switzerland could look like?
No, because we do not yet know what the European position will be. The EU recently invited all those European states that are not members of the Union to Prague. It became clear that this so-called new European political community in the current phase must protect its economic space and be competitive together. The question is: how do we strengthen the European continent?

Reliance on Russian gas has proved fatal. There is even greater reliance on China, where Xi Jinping has effectively established himself as sole ruler. Doesn’t less Russia and less China automatically mean more Europe?
Yes, to some extent this is the natural consequence of the current war situation. We are a community of values. But more Europe does not just mean more EU, but a conversation with all European countries. We need to build the strongest possible community with our neighbors so that we can compete globally and also be protected in terms of safety. Switzerland’s relations with the EU must also be viewed from this new point of view: it is not simpler, but it also offers opportunities. (bzbasel.ch)