“War can be won in different ways: militarily or with our values.” Better late than never: Swiss war material must now go to Ukraine

On February 24, 2022, Russian forces attacked Ukraine. How did you experience the outbreak of war a year ago?
I was awakened around 5 am. My colleague said to me in French: “Ils ont attaqué!” I thought in Donbass – but he answered: “No, in Kiev.” It was a moment of disorientation, as if the world as I knew it had stopped spinning.

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It was the attack by a member of the UN Security Council, a nuclear power. Did that scare you?
The fact that a permanent member of the UN Security Council allows himself to violate the UN Charter on such a massive scale raises fear: what will happen? Where is the world going? We didn’t know: will the war last three days, three months, three years? What does President Putin’s justification for fighting the Nazis in Kiev, against the ever-expanding NATO, mean for the further course of this war? The situation has become even more tense.

How tense?
The West has come together. The planned accession of Sweden and Finland will make NATO even bigger. With its attack, Russia has achieved the opposite of what it set out to achieve. That also worries me, because Russia remains a great power. After a year of war, there are big question marks: there is concern that third parties could become directly involved in the war, or that there will be an escalation that people do not want to talk about at all.

I’m telling you: that there will be a nuclear war?
Yes, the potential is there.

People who see themselves as pacifists see Europe faced with a choice between giving up on Ukraine, i.e. surrender, or waging nuclear war. How do you rate the dilemma?
It’s a choice between plague and cholera, you can die from either. It is mainly an academic question. Because the time for such a decision has already passed: the Western world has decided to stand up for power before the law. She wants to help Ukraine win the war. Only history will tell if that was the right decision.

Is Switzerland part of this western world that wants to win the war against Russia?
The war can be won in different ways: militarily or with our values ​​such as freedom, democracy and peace. Because of our neutrality, we are not involved militarily, not even with the supply of weapons. However, when we approved the EU sanctions, we clearly said that Switzerland is one of the Western countries. Russia’s massive violation of international law is unacceptable. I am convinced that this was the right decision.

What are the sanctions?
The aim is to weaken the Russian economy and make it impossible to finance the war. We see that the sanctions are having an effect. But as Iran shows, some of the developments we condemn cannot be stopped with sanctions alone.

Consequently, Putin can only be defeated militarily, not with sanctions.
Putin is not Russia, he is the president of Russia. 120 million people live there. We will see how the situation develops domestically. The tsarist rule ended because the population revolted.

Do you hope for an uprising in Russia?
A Russian uprising is not my hope, but a possibility. Something can also develop militarily or diplomatically – it doesn’t matter how: I just hope the war ends.

“Switzerland will only benefit from neutrality (…) if it is internationally recognized and respected.” And: “In Europe and in Anglo-Saxon countries (?) the understanding of Swiss neutrality has declined and the perception is sometimes negative.” The Bundesrat wrote this last October. What future does Swiss neutrality have?
It’s easy to be neutral in peacetime. When war breaks out in Europe, things get complicated. That was already evident in both world wars. We must now explain that our neutrality is a legal construct. But neutrality does not mean indifference. Our neutrality is important for Switzerland’s humanitarian policy and good offices. Western governments usually understand this if you explain it. At the same time, they strive for the greatest possible unity against Russia.

The blockade of the transfer of war material is not understood at all, said Federal Councilor Viola Amherd after the Munich security conference.
Maybe she hears that a little louder because she is Secretary of Defense and speaks a lot to Ministers of Defense. My interlocutors, the foreign ministers, expressed it more diplomatically. For example, you say that it would be nice if Switzerland found a way to do something.

Neutrality is a hot topic in domestic politics. For some, support for Ukraine and sanctions against Russia go too far. At the same time, there is a great willingness to help among the population, with donations and shelter for war displaced persons. How do you experience the atmosphere in the country?
I feel a strong desire among the people to end this war. And for everyone. In Switzerland, there is still a lot of understanding for the 75,000 refugees, especially because they are mainly women and children. The more time passes, the more difficult the situation becomes. Also because these people understandably want to integrate here, although their return is the goal – ours, but above all that of the Ukrainian government.

Is the mood threatening to change, is war fatigue increasing?
No, as long as so many bad things happen in Ukraine, I don’t see this danger. The federal government has approved more than a billion francs for the refugees, the cantons and municipalities also pay – and there is hardly any resistance from the population. That is a good sign.

What have you personally done for Ukraine?
I got involved with Swiss Solidarity and donated 5,000 francs on collection day. Swiss Solidarity and the Red Cross alone have raised more than 180 million francs. The solidarity of civil society is enormous. So far, the federal government has made available CHF 270 million, including for humanitarian aid. And now we have put together a third package.

140 million, with a focus on humanitarian demining. Why is the federal government committed to this?
Ukraine is heavily contaminated with mines. One speaks of an area that is four times the size of Switzerland. Countless lives are at risk as a result. In many areas, humanitarian demining is also needed so that displaced persons can return, destroyed infrastructure can be rebuilt or agriculture can be resumed. Switzerland wants to contribute to this.

How do you ensure that Switzerland does not indirectly finance military demining, which may be relevant to the course of the war?
This aspect is especially important for neutral Switzerland. The humanitarian demining activities supported by Switzerland are taking place in liberated areas, not on the front lines. Switzerland is also involved in training Ukrainian deminers for civilian purposes. It also supports educating the local population about the dangers of mines.

Switzerland paid 270 million Swiss francs. But Norway wants to put together a package worth $ 7.3 billion for the next five years. In addition, the Swiss bet is downright stingy.
In addition to short-term aid, reconstruction must come in the longer term. With the Lugano Conference, we have given an important impulse to this. But one thing is clear: according to current figures from the World Bank, reconstruction will cost thousands of billions of dollars. Switzerland will also have to participate in this – and probably not with the money we use today for international cooperation.

You do not want to touch the 11.25 billion already approved for international cooperation for the years 2021 to 2024?
No, we shouldn’t. We would reinforce the impression that some countries already have of us Europeans: that we are only now reaching the harsh reality of a war on our continent. As terrible as the war in Ukraine is, there are more wars and conflicts in the world. If we withdraw from regions and countries where our support is needed and highly appreciated, it would not be understood.

How much should Switzerland pay? Are Norway’s billions the role model?
This should certainly be a consistent contribution over several years that goes beyond current humanitarian aid. But I can’t name a specific amount yet, the discussions have only just begun. We also need to think about federal finances.

The Bundesrat has just decided on an austerity programme, the debt brake cannot be maintained.
This is a generational project. There will probably be an international Marshall Plan in which Switzerland will participate. But nothing has been decided yet, the discussion has to be held first.

So the federal government should make extra money available for Ukraine?
Yes, that is in the interest of the entire continent, including Switzerland. Due to Covid-19, we booked more than 34 billion francs extraordinary because it was a crisis. Funding for reconstruction could be regulated by a separate law. There is probably no room in the regular budget for an amount that is reasonable given the enormous costs. There will be a political debate on this issue.

How has Switzerland’s position in Europe changed this year?
The EU has moved closer together in the face of the war. Brussels has taken the lead and Ukraine is now a candidate country. By accepting the EU sanctions, Switzerland has clearly shown that it belongs to the European community of values.

As Federal President, they met several times in 2021 with the President of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen. What did it reveal?
Thanks to these meetings, we have been able to build trust and mutual understanding. Explorations and technical talks have been underway since last spring and some hurdles have been cleared. There is still a final sprint to come. If we manage to find a good mutual basis, the Bundesrat will adopt a new negotiating mandate. Before that happens, however, there are still open questions that need to be clarified.

For example, on March 16, when EU Commissioner Šefčovič is in Bern?
I am open for a meeting with Mr. ?ef?ovi?. I cannot tell you today whether we will be ready to take the next step by mid-March. It takes flexibility from both sides. (aargauerzeitung.ch)