Protest researchers: ‘The roadblocks hit a nerve – but they are legitimate’ Due to DETEC exemption: SP boss Meyer disapproves of Viola Amherd’s behavior

Mr. Mullis, would you stick to the street to protest?
Daniel Mullis: no As a scientist I have a different role. But I don’t think it’s wrong in itself.

So you think the current climate protests are justified?
Yes. A good protest succeeds in attracting attention and initiating a social debate. That’s what the climate movement is doing. At best, this leads to a change. The direct success in disputes that affect society as a whole, such as the climate protests, is difficult to measure.

Clubs like “Renovate Switzerland” get a lot of attention with civil disobedience. Is there a place for it in our society?
This type of protest has a long tradition and is one of the classic building blocks of social movements. Violations or criminal offenses have been committed. But as long as they move in the context of a democratic debate, I think that’s legitimate.

To what extent do criminal offenses move within the framework of a democratic debate?
Activists in the current climate movement do not use civil disobedience to overthrow governments. But to suggest to those in government that they must act now. That only shows that they respect democratic norms and processes. That can be annoying. But given the enormous challenges facing the world, a democratic society must be able to withstand this.

The circumstance justifies the means.
In this form, yes. However, not all forms of protest are legitimate just because the situation is precarious.

Where do you draw the boundaries?
I see the limits reached where people are in danger. But there is no universal limit. That always depends on the historical and political context in which the protest takes place.

The suffragettes carried out numerous attacks in London over 100 years ago. In the end, they won women’s suffrage. Would you then deny their legitimacy?
no But society has changed enormously in the last 100 years. I would say that a human life is worth more today than it was then. Violence is certainly less tolerated as a means these days. And today in liberal democracies, and especially in Switzerland, there are many more opportunities to be heard politically.

Another example: Green Chaim Nissim, a former member of the cantonal parliament of Geneva, shot a rocket launcher at the construction site of the Creys-Malville nuclear power plant in 1982. Legitimate, right?
As I said, there is no universal rule. In the end, a society has to decide that. Nissim himself stressed that the action was non-violent and no one was harmed. Understandably, others saw things differently. Even in this case, no one is harmed. You will only get annoyed. And as a protest researcher I can say: that is legit.

War and pandemic have stolen the spotlight from climate change. Do you have to take people out of their daily lives to bring their attention back to the subject?
Without the protests of recent weeks and months, climate change would not be so prominent in the public debate. In this respect, their strategy is successful.

But is attention everything? The protest groups encounter a huge wave of hatred. They are even called terrorists.
This accusation is completely baseless and I think it is almost impossible for the current climate groups to go in that direction. But it is clear from the reactions that there is a lot at stake. People are told in no uncertain terms that their prosperity and the associated emissions are not sustainable. The privileges of Western societies are scrutinized. This can lead to violent reactions.

True to the motto: run-down dogs bark?
Precisely. In Germany, for example, the car is an almost untouchable refuge. The protests on the street hit a nerve.

It also rains criticism in the media. How so?
At the moment I see a kind of media-outlawed competition – politicians from SVP or CDU/CSU are arguing over the most dramatic statements. The media likes to play along. The whole discussion about terrorism or the “Climate RAF” has become somewhat independent. These allegations are without any evidence. I don’t buy from the politicians that they really believe that themselves. This is more for profiling.

Politicians also blame the action groups for not talking about the climate anymore, but only about tomato soup, art and glued hands.
I do not share this impression. The latest Worry Barometer once again puts concern about climate change at the forefront. I find it a bit flat when politicians complain that nothing is being done for the climate. Because that would be their job. It is up to you to turn the discussion into action and thereby take the wind out of the sails of the protest.

Surveys show that the protests by Renovate Switzerland and Co. not well received by the population. Does a protest need to be popular to be successful?
no If I were stuck in traffic for hours because of a roadblock, I would also be very annoyed – although I think the protests are legitimate. I also trust other people with this ability to abstract.

In 2019, Extinction Rebellion turned the Limmat in Zurich bright green. They certainly got the attention afterwards. However, not much has changed since then. What do you think will be left of this wave of protests?
I think we’re just seeing the beginning. These protests will stay with us for a long time. You have to see it: it is the first time in a long time that European societies are forced to change from the outside. In theory, there shouldn’t have been much social upheaval. Climate change, on the other hand, will come. things will change Whether society wants it or not. This will lead to long-lasting disputes. An evaluation may then be possible in 30 years.

The climate movement often cites a study by a Harvard professor who says it only takes 3.5 percent of the population to overthrow even the most repressive regime. What do you make of it?
I’m a bit skeptical about that. More than 3.5 percent is needed for the climate issue. There has been a dissonance for some time between the will of the population for stricter climate measures and what politicians actually do.

Where does this dissonance come from?
So we come back to the beginning. Politicians act in a interests-oriented manner, also with a view to their clientele. Effective climate action would affect the economy, wealth and privileges of many.

Mr Mullis, last question: what is the point of these protests if hardly anything changes in countries such as China, India or the US?
The Arab Spring started with a single man setting himself on fire in a small village in Tunisia. A small protest group in Switzerland can generate a lot of media attention, find imitators in other countries and perhaps some European governments will approach climate negotiations differently in the future. All this is tedious and annoying. But that’s how democracy works.